Maybe you're right, Englishman, but, as you know, that's not how newspapers such as the Guardian work. No one here is going to tell me to lay off the Watch Tower if I think there is a story worth telling....
Steve Bates
stephen Bates
JoinedPosts by stephen Bates
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14
Need help with Watchtower quotes from the Guardian
by jerome indoes anybody have a list of quotes where the watchtower has quoted from the guardian news paper?.
i really dont need any jws that i show info about the un scandal to ask me if the guardian is an apostate newspaper.. so can anyone help with watchtower quotes mentioning the guardian.. some info on the guardian would also help since i dont know much about it.. thanks .
jerome
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Need help with Watchtower quotes from the Guardian
by jerome indoes anybody have a list of quotes where the watchtower has quoted from the guardian news paper?.
i really dont need any jws that i show info about the un scandal to ask me if the guardian is an apostate newspaper.. so can anyone help with watchtower quotes mentioning the guardian.. some info on the guardian would also help since i dont know much about it.. thanks .
jerome
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stephen Bates
Thank you for your interest in the Guardian newspaper, of which I am the current religious affairs correspondent. I wrote the articles about the Watchtower and the UN in the newspaper late last year.
I don't know of any "history" between the Jehovah's Witnesses and the newspaper before then.
The Guardian is a British national daily newspaper which has daily sales of about 400,000 and a readership of approximately one million. It was founded in 1821 in Manchester to campaign for Parliamentary reform and it has remained on the moderate left of British politics ever since, though it is not aligned to any political party. I do not know what is meant by apostate in this context (apostate from what?) but although the Guardian was founded by non-conformists, it is now thoroughly secular and ecumenical in its approach to religion.
The old hippie should be aware that, although the paper was originally the Manchester Guardian it dropped the place name from its title about 40 years ago when the paper's main operations moved from Manchester to London.
The Guardian Weekly is a digest of articles from the newspaper (and the French newspaper Le Monde and the Washington Post) which is published from London mainly for overseas subscribers. The company also publishes the Observer, which is a separate operation and is a long-standing British Sunday newspaper (sales about 450,000 weekly).
From experience, any quotations used by the Watch Tower's publications should be treated with caution since they are often taken out of context, may have appeared many years ago and may even be distorted through selective or partial quotation. They may also be taken from articles by contributors who do not necessarily represent the newspaper's editorial line (we publish a wide range of political and other views and so could very easily be carrying articles by Yasser Arafat and Benjamin Netanyahu - not natural bedfellows or likely to express a uniformity of views...) And, of course, the use and interpretation made of such quotations by the Watch Tower's publications may not bear any resemblance to the context in which they were written.
I wrote to the Watch Tower's public relations director earlier this year asking whether the organisation was preparing to credit the Guardian or make payment for its use of our copyrighted material but strangely have received no reply from the organisation for its filching....
Interestingly, however, the Watch Tower seems to have been quoting more regularly and with apparent approval from the Guardian in recent months since the UN articles appeared. I cannot quite understand the logic of this but it clearly means that we are regarded as a newspaper of veracity, merit and serious purpose, worthy of quotation, so this may reassure any members in good standing who see the UN articles.Best wishes,
Stephen Bates
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WTS supports The Guardian
by ozziepost inthe april 22 issue of awake!
contains no less than 5 quotations from the guardian newspaper of the uk.. you may recall that the guardian's religious affairs editor wrote some very revealing articles about the wts and its ngo status in the un.
remember how the wts pr department issued a statement defending their position and how they corresponded with stephen bates and reminded us all that the wts views the guardian as a serious, factual and reliable newspaper that it quotes regularly?
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stephen Bates
Dear Friends,
Thank you indeed for pointing out the Guardian citations in the latest issue of the Watch Tower. I don't recognise any of them - they certainly weren't written by me as far as I can remember - nor do I know how recently they appeared in the paper.
It's perfectly feasible that such words did appear. Some of the paper's columnists are critical of religion (seeing how the Watch Tower behaves, who could blame them?) and, from what I've seen the WT is reporting words that purportedly show other religions in a bad light, which would fit their strategy nicely of course.
In the light of previous citations in the Watch Tower it is highly unsafe to take any quotation or attribution at face value however, since past textual analysis has shown the JWs to be quite happy to wrench quotations out of context and even tio reverse the meaning of what is being said by selective quotation.
These appearances will not affect my standing with the Guardian because none of us see the publications in question (nor would it, even if my editor did, since we believe in free speech...though we naturally prefer comment to be accurate and not misquoted).
Not sure I can quite see the point of this rash of quotations however. Surely it can't be to present the Guardian as a reputable and reliable newspaper to loyal followers after all the critical things we have been saying about the Witnesses?
Incidentally, the PR at the Watchtower never did respond to my letter to him, or to the suggestion that they were in breach of copyright for lifting Guardian words without payment....Thank you once again,
Steve Bates
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WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase
by Lionel_P_Hartley instephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.
he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.
i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .
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stephen Bates
Dear Nassau,
Thank you for your reply. I am sorry that I cannot conduct this debate in Dutch and praise your accomplishment in writing in English.
I think you labour under a number of misapprehensions though. No journalist is exempt from criticism and I have never suggested that I should be an exception to this rule. I merely pointed out that no one had yet pointed out an error in what I have written about the JWs. Neither have you!
You seem to think that writing about the Jehovah's Witnesses occupies all my time. Nothing could be further from the truth.They are very insignificant to me and scarcely an obsession of my newspaper. Of more than 200 of my articles in the Guardian last year just three were about the JWs - the year before the number was one.
If you saw the Guardian (but why should you?) you would know that I have written highly critical articles about the Catholic church (many more than about the JWs!) and the Church of England and that, as LP Hartley pointed out earlier in this thread, at the end of last year I sued and won substantial financial damages from the Catholic Herald newspaper here, and a complete apology, for their questioning the integrity of my reporting. That was on a Catholic issue, by the way - when the church forced the resignation of the archbishop of Wales for shielding two paedophile priests. Do the JWs do that to their elders, do you know?
My colleagues here have also written critically of other religions: our Delhi correspondent had a harrowing 2,000 word article about the caste-killing of two young lovers by Hindu relatives a few months ago and others have provided several columns and articles critical of the Muslim treatment of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
In the Catholic church in England and Wales there have been 21 convictions of priests (out of a total of 5,000 priests) in relation to sexual offences in recent years. No religion is exempt from this sort of thing and no one believes that its adherents are perfect, or that when they stray it is the religion that is at fault. But I just look at the difference in response between the RCs and the JWs on this terrible issue.
The Catholic church here did not blame others but set up an independent inquiry to recommend how the church should deal with the problem and has said it will implement all its 83 draconian recommendations immediately. These include vetting of all appointments (including consulting police and local authority records), appointment of surveillance staff in every parish and diocese, annual reports and the establishment of an independent national office to investigate complaints and aid victims. The church has apologised and paid compensation to all victims and promised to investigate any further complaints.
The JWs as I understand it decline to acknowledge there might be any problem and, like you, accuse anyone who criticises as being motivated by malignity towards the religion itself, rather than malefactors within it. I know where I'd rather be in this instance!
I apologise for saying your appreciation of Northern Ireland was ignorant rather than misinformed, but I can't be responsible for where you get your information or what colleagues on other newspapers write. I did, if you noticed, point out an example of ignorance in your assertion about the "Protestant" church - there are several varieties there.
Now I really think this correspondence must be boring to other people and really should stop.Best wishes, Nassau,
Stephen Bates
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WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase
by Lionel_P_Hartley instephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.
he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.
i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .
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stephen Bates
I have just caught up with Nassau's comments, which I am sorry that I don't quite understand, not least because s/he says he wants to raise two different things and then raises four.
As I see it, a journalist should report as objectively as possible, being aware that complete impartiality is impossible. And that one has to use one's judgement about the balance of probabilities and "truth" on any issue so that this does not preclude coming down on one side or the other.
Some correspondents and evidently the WTS itself seem to believe that I have some malign animus against the JWs or that I am motivated by some spite or hatred of religion. Nothing could be further from the truth - I had no views about the JWs until I started dealing with them and researching the UN story and its background. I think in the circumstances, seeing their publications, hearing from former witnesses on this website and from current witnesses and speaking to others directly, that it is impossible not to conclude that the organisation bears a heavy burden of responsibility and hypocrisy in its dealings with the membership and the outside world.
It is impossible to retain equanimity here, even as one tries to remain as objective in one's reporting as possible. Indignation is a natural response but I have tried to remain as fair as possible. How, though, do you remain on an even keel in the face of such palpable nonsense as the theocratic war strategy or the attitude to the UN? But no one has yet pointed out to me any significant factual or interpretive errors in what I have written.
I am not trying to attack religion in general, or particular, Nassau, or its adherents. But I don't see why I should not point out some malignities in the way men practise it. I don't doubt people's sincerity but I am surely allowed to question their motives occasionally. It is a journalist's job not to take things at face value - otherwise all is a suffocating blandness which is not genuinely informative to the reader. We must question in order to inform. I don't restrict this to the JWs - as others have pointed out I have written critically of other religions, including my own, Catholicism, as well. To know that there are failings in my religion does not stop me being a Catholic or going to Mass.
Finally: Northern Ireland. This is much too comnplicated a subject to discuss here. Even at the level of definitions Nassau reveals a certain degree of ignorance: there are several varieties of Protestantism in NIreland of varying degrees of vehemence and bigotry. My newspaper has written critically of the situation in the province and the behaviour of its inhabitants for decades. To say though that some NIreland folk misuse their religion and even that some ministers of religion have manipulated them to exacerbate the social, economic, religious, political and historical tensions there is not to argue that Christianity should therefore be junked.
Does this help? Sorry to go on.... -
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WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase
by Lionel_P_Hartley instephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.
he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.
i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .
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stephen Bates
Sorry to intrude again - just spotted that I wasn't actually offered the leadership of Australia by Mr and Mrs Ozzie. Never mind - with one Brit as head of state, who needs another? And anyway, beating the Poms at cricket just wouldn't be the same...I'd take the sponsorship though - anything to get away from the British winter.
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WTSComplainstoGuardianBatesRepliesFloggingCase
by Lionel_P_Hartley instephen bates recently wrote an article about the flogging death of a girl in chicago http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive/article/0,4273,4301026,00.html.
he kindly sent me a copy of a letter he received from the wts office in pennsylvania and gave me permission to post it.
i don't have time to fix the formatting right now.. .
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stephen Bates
Thank you every one for your kind remarks (even the old hippie!) I don't think I've ever been offered the leadership of three different countries in one day before...or any day, come to that. Now I've got three votes, that only makes about another 400 million to go.
One thought occurs to me (I shld have put it in my letter to Mr Brown)what sort of religion is it that abandons people, however terrible, when they do wrong? Isn't there some cock crowing in Mr Brown's attempt to distance the JWs from the Slacks, particularly if, as some correspondents to this thread have said, they must have remained members if they were not disfellowshipped and continued to attend meetings however irregularly?
Surely Christianity involves offering compassion, succour and aid, particularly to those who because of their behaviour deserve it least. What sort of religion? A religion which gives even the appearance of sanctioning the brutal chastisement of children based on Biblical precepts from another age and culture, I guess....Really Mr Brown ought to think these things through, but maybe that's not to be expected in his position.
Thanks again,
Steve Bates
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MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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stephen Bates
Dear Friends,
In case anyone is wondering about the name on my splendid recent email from the JW called quastie1...Ian Mayes is the readers' editor of the Guardian and is a perfectly innocent party - he just forwarded me quastie's note. He is the man whose job it is on the paper to receive readers' complaints and comments and he's starting to get used to receiving abusive e-mails, especially from people like quastie (I imagine him to be a small furry animal for some reason, with prominent teeth and a deep burrow) who don't have the courage or conviction to sign their own names. Our letters editor (who handles the readers' letters page) has also received a few - notably the one from Mr Gillies, who has somehow gone all quiet again.
Best wishes,
Steve Bates
PS: The Tablet is carrying an article by me this Friday: www.thetablet.co.uk
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Media Dept London HQ - UN Letter
by Celtic inhawk was most helpful in supplying letter to the board here a day or so ago re: wtbts membership of dpi un.. i rang the media department in london today who said that they were well aware of the letter and its contents.. asked why the organisation seems to be in contradiction to its litureture the wt and awake, concerning the beast of revelation, i was told by the department that the society has never been affiliated to the un.
the only reason why they belonged to the dpi was to access their, (the un), library resources.. i asked if the comments (non-affiliation) could be sent to me via email.
i was told that that was not nessarsary as the un had already supplied information.
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stephen Bates
Apologies folks - just been told by the Tablet that my piece is not going in this week (the IRA'S decision to disarm prompted an article by John Hume, the Catholic Irish Nobel prize winner, which caused mine to be dropped at a late moment after it was already in type). I had this problem with getting my stuff promptly in the Guardian too. Hopefully the article will go in the Tablet next week - they liked the article but RCs outweigh JWs I am afraid in a Catholic newspaper...
Steve Bates
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Media Dept London HQ - UN Letter
by Celtic inhawk was most helpful in supplying letter to the board here a day or so ago re: wtbts membership of dpi un.. i rang the media department in london today who said that they were well aware of the letter and its contents.. asked why the organisation seems to be in contradiction to its litureture the wt and awake, concerning the beast of revelation, i was told by the department that the society has never been affiliated to the un.
the only reason why they belonged to the dpi was to access their, (the un), library resources.. i asked if the comments (non-affiliation) could be sent to me via email.
i was told that that was not nessarsary as the un had already supplied information.
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stephen Bates
I've just caught up with your correspondence about Mr Gillies' letter about my articles to the Guardian. The position is that Mr Gillies' letter will not be published in our newspaper because it was untruthful.
The Guardian publishes corrections and clarifications and allows letters to be published contradicting what has been reported but it does not gratuitously print letters that are deceitful or intended to mislead. I was able to point to the falsities in Mr Gillies' letter as a reason for not publishing it and this was accepted.
My letter to him was a personal note and not really intended for publication - I wanted to point out what I took to be the inadequacies in his reply. I showed both letters to one of my correspondents on this board and they were posted within minutes. I don't complain about this because, after all, Mr Gillies' letter was written for publication and who better to see it than those most interested in the issue, especially when they are in a good position to assess and analyse what he wrote? I have found this most illuminating!
For information, I believe one further article by me, will be published in this Friday's issue of the Tablet (www.thetablet.co.uk). The Tablet is a highly respected Catholic weekly, which is widely read in senior religious circles in Britain and north America. It does not contain the latest toing and froing with Mr Gillies, because it was written before his letter arrived, but it is certainly informed by some of the things I have been reading here over the last couple of weeks.Best wishes,
Steve Bates